View Full Version : AIR LOCKER or WINCH
15-07-2002, 09:07 AM
well the buildup continues, next step either a lekky winch or rear air locker. here the theory.
which order and which is better investment.
1. winch i can recover myself, i can go hard with open diffs and if i get into trouble i can recover, wont get as far as with locker but i have recovery ability.
2. rear locker, i buy that, go further and harder than mates and get stuck, no lekky winch, just turfa and they cant recover me cause they cant get there, im in the proverbial. hmmm. so what to do.
which one is the first investment, or the better. :confused:
15-07-2002, 09:10 AM
Front Locker :D
15-07-2002, 10:43 AM
15-07-2002, 10:57 AM
Better mates ;)
15-07-2002, 11:09 AM
...ok I agree with Wooders assuming LSD has some life left then do front locker first then rear then electric winch... unless you do lots of muds and then perhaps winch is first choice???
I got my winch first and am still arranging lockers now two years later - if I did it again I would do lockers first
15-07-2002, 11:16 AM
Think there are two topics here...
Winch - Leky or Hydraulic (The answer is of course Hydraulic). 3 words: Continuous Duty Cycle - and dont give me that dont work if ya stall BS!! Neither will a Lecky with 1 battery!! And explain how ya stall an Auto with a snorkel!
Then Winch vs Locker
Open diffs are going to guarentee you get stuck. I'd agree with front locker, but think your LSD is wearing out, so rear will be the choice.
You've always got a hand winch too. That Jeep is going to be unstoppable once it gets some lockers.... its crying out man.... dont be mean to it. smile.gif
BTW whats the setup with centre diff locks in these Jeeps? Are they full time with a centre lock or not, or part time (thereby locked when in 4wd?)
15-07-2002, 11:32 AM
Quote "Your jeep is going to be unstoppable when you get lockers".............mmmm.....sure thing mate.
TJs are part time 4x4s with no hub locks, so the front axels, diff and drive shaft are moving when the vehicle is in 2wd.
[ 16 July 2002, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: Jonesy ]
15-07-2002, 11:39 AM
Ahh give the boy some hope will ya!
[ 16 July 2002, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: TheDoc ]
Can someone Explain the TJ Jeep 4wd Setup?
In my TJ i've got a Part time light and a FULL Time light the full time has never came on as far as i can tell and the part time is allways on when its engaged to 4H/4L.
What is the difference between the two.
Also does the jeep come with some kind of center diff lock kind of setup where its allways 50/50 drive? or does it have the usual 100% where ever traction is lost.?
15-07-2002, 05:44 PM
I've had Lockers get me out of trouble and I've had the winch get me out of trouble, get both and you can't go wrong.
15-07-2002, 07:50 PM
What about if you roll - you don't want to have the engine running - but the lekky will pull from the battery - even on a single battery.
OK you've got a snorkel - that hasn't prevented some idiots hydrolocking before - engine dead - eletric will pull untill your battery(s) are dead - better than no pull....
Speed - even a 2speed Hydaulic is no match for a high speed electric...
Weight - those Hydaulic wench's are fat & heavy 8itches ;)
Power steering boxes on Jeeps aren't the best sealed things - Personally I'd hate to blow the seals on my steering box again....Nope - It's Lekky ALLL THE WAY !!!
As for the TJ - it's parttime 4x4 only (hence no Fulltime 4wd light ;) )...There is no centre diff on a TJ.
ON an XJ There's also no centre diff - but the Transfer case gives either fulltime 4x4 (ie differential action) or Parttime (no differential action).....I'm no expert on the XJ box so I'll hand over the volvo boys tongue.gif
15-07-2002, 08:44 PM
I knew someone would bring that up!!
1. If ya Roll -
i. better hope you've got well sealed batteries and the acid doesnt leak out.
ii. you're going to have to pull out the hand winch anyway to get it upright.
2. Idiots & hydrolocking
i. there's never any accounting for the idiot factor.
ii. idiots should stick to the road.
iii. everyone will laugh when the idiot gets stuck, so its all good.
iv. most times it's not in deep water that your winching out of, if it is, you've got a problem anyway you look at it.
v. cant see that it is really good to be running an electric winch underwater anyway - the hydraulic units are totally sealed.
i. I use a two speed hydraulic - slow for recovery, fast for realing in. For recovery work you definatly want it going slow.
ii. could use the fast setting but I'd recon that would be too fast unless you are re-winding the spool.
iii. the spool releases and the cable pulls straight out.
i. my OX is lighter than the Warn.
ii. also smaller
iii. and thats the big one.
5. Power steering boxes
i. can't comment on the box in the jeep...if ya recon they are leaky well that could be a problem.
ii. you MUST use synthetic auto fluid so it doesn't get hot.
iii. I carry a spare hydraulic hose... its small and stows away.
6. Battery setup
i. the last thing you need is not to have time to recharge your deep cycle so the engle wont run all night, or worse still there's no power for the electric blanket!! grrrr.... smile.gif
7. Have we forgottern - most lekkys are intermittant duty cycle.
8. Any front mounted winch is cool, but lets face it, its a fashion statement! A hand winch is essential no matter whats up front, and despite the fact that it's a bit of work, they'll get you out of far more situations.
[ 16 July 2002, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: TheDoc ]
15-07-2002, 08:52 PM
Oh yeah, my point to all that blurb was that JimmyB should already have a hand winch, and get the rear locker.
Plus you get that fancy compressor for blowing up your tyres.
Hows this for a suggestion:-
Fit lockers to yours, get your mates to fit power winch, you carry the tirfor.
That way you mostly get through while you take pics of them stuck and winching themselves out :D :D
If you get stuck with them near, they winch you out. If you are on your own use the Tirfor.
Power winches are for when you intend getting stuck and enjoy winching out.
Hand winches plus lockers are for when you avoid getting stuck but need something that works underwater, upside down, forwards, backwards etc etc as a backup.
15-07-2002, 09:04 PM
Rollover - Agreed - That's why I run optima Dry Cells :D ... Plus I have a small hand winch & in worst case a hilift was a winch....
Water - Lekkys can be sealed pretty well & it's best if you relocate the solinoids (mine are in a box under the bonnet).
Idiots - best entertainment factor tongue.gif
Speed - But can you easily switch from fast to slow from the drivers seat? I like the fact that the 8274 is nice & fast - so if you drive & winch there's minimal is any slack in the cable....(Thinking more comp here)...
Weight - Ok I thought they were bigger & heavier.....
But I agree a hand wench is a good investment...BTW I've seen loads of new Hand winches on aussie ebay for $350 (buy-it-now)....
I agree with MattC & DXJ. Get some lockers, and buy some beer for a mate with a winch.
You can get a cheapie hand winch, but a cheapie hand locker?
Which one would you use more?
15-07-2002, 09:52 PM
Cant change the speed from the drivers seat, but one of the fundamental rules of winching is that you shouldn't drive at the same time, as it can strain the cable or worse still snap it loose.
Having said that, I've got stacks of video showing me do exactly the wrong thing!
Ahh well, what can ya do... its allways different when ya out there trying to do it in a hurry.
All fun and games, at least until someone gets chopped in half. smile.gif
15-07-2002, 10:28 PM
Ahh doc - partly true...
Now can you tell me why that "rule" is??
15-07-2002, 10:59 PM
Think the theory goes something like this...
If you release the pressure too quickly, there's the potential to allow something to come unstuck..especially if you're using a hook in the setup rather than shackles.
The other reason is that theoretically when you roll back a bit or jerk it, the weight my exceed the limits on the cable and snap it.
Then there's the idiot factor again. He accidently puts it in reverse.
Think one of the other "rules" is not to winch on an angle... if only this were possible all the time. The few times I've done that ya tend to find all the cable bunches up on one side of the spool... not really a good idea.
Currently I've got a hook on the front, though there is no latch on it to hold it in place without the tension. The next time I'm in town I'll get either the spring latch thingo or a loop or something.
16-07-2002, 12:10 AM
well i got my hand winch, so i guess its either front locker with rear lsd or rear locker, and i think that a rear locker would be a better initial outlay.
gotta get a winch bar anyways as i need to replace my bullbar.
16-07-2002, 01:38 AM
Winch first then lockers :D
cos when your stuck with lockers, your stuck... and you'll need a winch to get out of it.
when your stuck with open diffs, you can always get out of it.
16-07-2002, 01:40 AM
Bill speaks with experience tongue.gif
16-07-2002, 03:16 AM
Whats a rear LSD worth compared to the Locker? If they were cheap enough the front locker & rear LSD combination might be the economically sensible way to go (given that the thing is part time 4wd - ie and locks centre), if similar well ya know, start with the rear.
16-07-2002, 11:33 AM
OK partly there....
My understanding of the winch/driving rule is:
If you are driving & winching, and the driving starts to overrun (ioe faster) than the winch - you get slack in the cable.
This slack yes could cause the hook to unclasp - but more imfortantly if traction is lost again this places a shock load in the winch for which it's not designed & can damage it - So saftey hook or not - doesn't matter..
BUT if your winch has a faster speed (ie HS9500 or 8274) then you are MUCH less likely to over run the winch line speed - Infact in Comps you see this done ALL the time....Part of the reason the 8274 is such a popular winch in competition circles....
Mind you in many/most/all? recreational usages speed isn't a concern - infact could get the average punter into trouble if all haste is used..then it's not such a big deal...
Lastly if I was running driver training or tag-along etc where the possibility of constant winching was higher then I'd be leaning toward Hydraulic...
16-07-2002, 11:58 AM
Cant argue with any of that. Dagnabit.
16-07-2002, 07:15 PM
if you do alot of greasy hilly type stuff go the rear locker.
if you do alot of climbing over objects and twisty stuff get a front locker.
get a mate with a japanese fourbie to snatch you through and you won't need a winch ;)
17-07-2002, 06:33 AM
Hey Doc got a question 4 ya about the hydro winch.( I know SFA about 'em) :D
I was out a few weeks ago with a big GU wagon and he had one (don't know the brand) but we were doing some fairly simple recovery work and he had to turn the front wheels while winching and then the winch stopped..
Is this the norm for all hydro winches??
I can tell you apart from the speed factor which is extremely slow,this turned a simple recovery into a full on road building session.He also had to use a line that we all rather he didn't..
BTW leccy all the way here..my 8274 reels in at a slightly quicker speed than 1st low is at idle..makes driving and winching easy..
Oh and in answer to the origional question go the winch first..
[ 17 July 2002, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Jumbo ]
17-07-2002, 06:59 AM
Theorectically there is ment to be a valve that gives priority to the steering rather than the winch. Think this is more of an issue on full lock.
Having said that I've never had a problem with doing both at the same time. Certainly doesnt seem to make any difference where my tyres are pointing. I tried this out recently to specifically see what would happen and took the line I wanted.
My only suggestion is maybe the crusier has a bigger powersteering pump as the valve would be pressure related. I'm also using synthetic oil which helps to ensure nothing overheats.
Back to the question again.....
There's no situation that a power winch will get ya out of that a hand one wont! Go the lockers! They're cool baby!
17-07-2002, 07:15 AM
Sounds feasabile to me Doc..It was his first time using it as well. maybe that was a factor..
17-07-2002, 07:50 AM
Ok, ok, I know I've been raving in this thread smile.gif , but have a look at JBs video in the 4x4vid section (maybe he can put the link here for us). Turn up the volume.
Is the rear locker going to help?
18-07-2002, 02:56 AM
just got this hill climb sitting on my personal server. i go up, i go down, jeep CHEROKEE (http://members.optusnet.com.au/jabailey/7milehillclimb.mov) action
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