Problems with Ironman Lift, 2014 WK2
 

Hi All,

Looking for some insight as to the potential problem with my ironman lift. I purchased the front struts/springs and rear springs for a 40MM lift on a 2014 petrol WK2. I opted for the standard rate rear springs and the heavier 50-100kg constant load front springs (bash plates and pre-runner total about 60kg).

Had the lift installed by a local Ironman shop and picked it up at the end of the day Saturday. It has significant reverse rake with the front way higher than the rear. The shop acknowledged the issue and said give it time to settle and then they could help readdress. After getting home I took a few measurements and center of hubcap to bottom of mud guard is 574mm/523mm (F/R).

I also found the rear shock relocation brackets in the front seat so they were not installed.

Questions: Could the significant height on the front just be due to using the constant load springs as opposed to standard? The jeep doesn't seem to ride bad but there is a knock in the right front when the wheel rebounds after going over a speed bump at about 40k. Because the rear shock relocation mounts are not installed could this be holding the back of Jeep down?

I've e-mailed the shop to ask about the relocation brackets but wondering if anyone has seen such a significant difference in height after a lift. Thanks!

Photo added for reference.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...b8d081cc50.jpg


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I'd be getting the rear shock brackets fitted ASAP as they are to stop the rear shocks being the topping out with the extra height.Put a jack under the back and see if you can jack it higher if you can then I'd assume the constant load springs are also whats holding the front higher .

Not using the relocation brackets would not hold the rear end down. Any limitation effect would be on full articulation.

While the front may settle, the rear probably will also settle by a similar amount... so you're unlikely to see much change in rake. You don't mention any additional weight bearing on the rear. If you are currently unladen, things will only get worse when you pack your stuff.

The photo is hard to make out the rake. Bear in mind that the guard-lip height is always a bit taller at the front. I don't have data at hand. Maybe check the front to rear sill height, or bottom edge of the doors?

How is the bump performance up front? OK, or does it hit too hard???

Cheers, Steve

The back is mostly unladed. Just recovery gear and small tool bag, nowhere near the 100kg min for the constant load springs.

I measured from the bottom of the door at the farthest front point to and the furthest rear point and got 490/470 (F/R).

Bump performance and overall ride is surprisingly good. Doesn't feel to rough, just the knock when I go over speed bumps. We have a few of the soft but wide bumps in the neighborhood where 40kph is no issue. When the wheel comes off the bump i hear a knock on the divers side front.

Best picture I could get, garage is the only level area I have and not enough room to back up.

Not enough weight in the front to warrant the heavy duty springs. They are more aimed at running a bar and winch. Looks quite high in that picture!

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Yeah that's heaps mate. It's gotta go back.

I also agree with the comment above and believe a "standard upgrade" spring would be sufficient for your front end weight addition. These are invariably (read always) heavier than stock anyway. It would be interesting to see the spring data for the two options... both kg/mm* and free length.

For some reason, cock-ups with "constant load" packages do seem to be a thing.

Cheers, Steve

* often quoted as lb/in... coz Freedom Units.

I would have gone standard rate all round. Is there any chance you can get them to swap the fronts out? They will settle over time, but I would think the front will always be a little higher.

The RVDS Data shows the standard height at the front )hub centre to bottom of guard) to be 490mm while rear is 512mm thats for a V6 petrol Laredo, that is the bench mark for stated lifts that suspension places give..

I have found that unless you have a steel bar and winch going the heavier springs makes for a hard ride with little give, my bar and bash plates add 60kg to the front of mine and I am going for the standard 0-50kg ride springs/struts, they will be firmer than the OE and give me the height I want with less problems.......while the rear, if only springs replaced it is imperative the shocks have lift blocks added and rear spring rate should be a match for the front spring rate so they work together, changed springs on all my vehicles, Jeep and others and always seem to find what they reckon is often too firm, so now select my own........ I hate changing the things around especially struts.

But thats for a diesel, Petrol uses the lighter spring rate and no need for rear spacers as not Nivomat shocks.

RVD site, fill in the boxes to get your vehicle data. https://myrta.com/rvd/searchRVD.do

I don't know about Ironman but I just had Bilstein shocks and King springs fitted to mine and initially my vehicle lifted 65mm in the front and rear. Over the past month they've settled and I now have have 50mm lift in front and 40mm in rear which looks good compared to the stock rake. (The front is still lower than the rear but not as much as normal. The gap above the tyre to the guard matches now.)

I'm glad you're happy with the driving comfort as I am not overly impressed. At first I accepted it was firmer but over the past month I've come to realise I am not really happy with it. I am going to look into other options like removing the Bilstein shocks and putting the old ones back in but keeping the new king springs. Hopefully this will give me more on-road comfort but with the lift I like.
Has anyone else fitted raised springs with the standard shocks? How did they like it?

I agree with the shop, you need to give it time to settle and then see if there is a need to change them out.

However, I'm surprised they put in constant load springs as they're really only needed to compensate the weight for a full bull bar, winch and bash plates. I wouldn't have thought there was enough weight to warrant them.

Everyone states these lift heights but what is the original measurement before fitting thats the main question ????
If you have a 40mm lift the front height should be 530mm while the rear would be around the 552mm mark (Diesel)...... If lifting the rear with Nivomat shocks fitted they must have spacers fitted............

If getting a harsh ride its springs, too hard springs won't move enough to allow the shocks to even work properly..

Ride is very subjective. With my Ironman lift I wish it was harder. It's better now with the constant load springs with such a heavy front end, but I'd love it to be a lot stiffer to stop some of the body roll.

Bulldog2516,

Just as a comparison, with my Ironman lift, my ride height is:

534mm at the front from the centre of the wheel cap to the bottom edge of guard.

The rear is 550mm.

That's with the rear empty and the front having constant load springs with an Ironman Bull Bar, winch and Uneek 4x4 Bash plates.

So that matches what a 40mm lift should be, thats just the info I needed for investigating my changes which I'm getting keen to do mine as the front has sagged heaps........ buy the struts pre made so it will be no drama to swap em out and hoping the rear will be just as easy....

My Bilstein and King set up sits at 530 front and 545 rear.
Before the lift my car sat at 470 front and 512 rear.

Since your happy with the ride maybe a set of 20mm spacers in the rear might be an option.

The engine and transmission will in the long term squash your front springs, I don't mean in the settling in period, long term. The high rate springs will resist this for much longer and have some advantages under heavy braking and holding your suspension up higher in its travelling which usually results in a better ride quality.

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Might be worth looking into heavier sway bars for body roll control. Doing it with spring rates risks loosing your ride quality.

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No specific experience with a wk2 but I think your all over it, sounds like shock valving in your case.

Your std shock idea is a good one but as you've alluded to there could be issues with where in the stroke they end up with the lift.

Another option is foam cell shocks. Foam cell shocks for the most part rely more heavily on rebound control and when you couple that with the fact they don't run a positive gas charge (which arguably adds more compression hardness over minor bumps) they give a much smoother ride than gas shocks if you have good springs

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To be honest, I never thought of that. I might have to do some research.

Thanks for all the input. So still no change in the height. I jacked up the Jeep to measure suspension drop and have only 30mm front and about 90mm in the rear. Thinking a front spring swap is in order. I’m also getting strut top out over some speed bumps and on the way in abs out of the Stockton sand dunes. Is strut top out a significant issue or just an annoyance?

Next question, I pulled up the iron man catalogue and noticed this kit is marked as to be used with nivomat rear shocks only. Do the nivomat and standard rear shocks use the same relocation bracket? If not, I suspect this is why they were not installed. Now why they sold and installed the kit in the first place is the real question.

Thanks.


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Only having 30mm drop wouldn't thrill me at all.

Do you know if it's actually the shock topping out, or is one of the suspension joints the limiting point? Either way, in my opinion, repeatedly hitting mechanical limits isn't good for long-term reliability. Some people tolerate such things... it's not my bag though.

A bit every now and then isn't the end of the earth...

Cheers, Steve

I'm pretty sure Nivomat rear shocks are standard on all Australian WK2s without Quad lift. So if they changed the springs they would have left the Nivomat shocks in. They then add their own spacers in which maybe is why they didn't replace the relocation brackets.

I also just realised that yours is a petrol which is another reason why I find it strange they put constant load front springs in.

I had read something like that as well, that the AU WK2 all had Nivomat. I grabbed the calipers and got an OD on the rear shock at about 52mm where I think the Nivomats are 62mm?

The spacers they left out are the one from their kit. Shop will install them no problem. Now just waiting on hear back on options for the front.


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There have definitely been instances of AU delivered WK2 without Nivomats. I don't recall the pattern, so it mustn't have been clear cut... however I am reasonably certain that these reports only applied to petrol variants.

It's definitely possible.

Cheers, Steve

Nivomat are 63mm.

All Aus diesels had Nivomat and ready for tow package.

They just don't sound right, can you see the part numbers on the springs just to check, I do know if you have the heavier springs fitted and no bull bar/winch etc they will ride like hell and you don't get much travel, expert advice from one place changed my original decision so i got what they advised, stupid decision on my part, rode like a forklift on gravel, changed to my original type and far better.......this time around going for the Ironman 025b front and 026B rear with spacer along with new struts that should give me some lift and handle my touring duties................ was going for Kings as I have used them before but no options for the WK2 just the one version.

Hi Drover,

I had checked the front and confirmed they are the Jeep025C front springs. Hadn’t checked the pns but based on lift I expect they are the Bs as requested.


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Well front ones going by their catalogue for a petrol should be B's unless saddled with winch and barwork .............. With a diesel I'm still tossing up which way to go, wouldn't be a drama if they were easy to change but without a press its not possible.
The front 025C springs while the same compression values they are 5mm thicker and 462mm compared to 448mm longer so there's the height and the hard ride I would say.....Easiest way is to go out and get a nice Bar with Winch and 30kgs of lights, that should smooth it all out...

Yeah. If I had 3 grand to throw at I would be all over that. Especially with off-road animals new WK2 bar. But if you need some 025C springs I’ll have a set for cheap soon! Haha


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I can confirm not all WK2s have Nivomat rear suspension. Mine is a Petrol Limited. Standard Hitachi rear shocks. Now Bilstiens.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...75c22cc73c.jpg


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I don’t have Nivomat either. 2015 Laredo petrol.

Hey Bulldog
Let’s just say it ain’t right!
Surprised they proceeded with heavier rate springs. Really only needed with winch and bullbar.
Stock measurements between wheel centre to top of wheel arch -petrol and diesel models are the same as per certifications
2014 Laredo front/back - 489mm/512mm
2014 Limited front/back - 483/502
Overland/summit/ trailhawk the same as the limited
Heavy duty springs will account for increased height at front as they have been designed to compress with greater weight - weight not enough, less compression = greater spring height.
Wk2 really needs anti top out plates at front designed to stop the strut from topping out at the increased spring height. Thats why you are hearing the topping out over speed humps. Same top out sound that many air suspension owners have commented on when at max ride height. Stock shocks in my opinion at tuned really well and unless stuffed no need to replace.
I would be avoiding max wheel travel at rear in particular with out those relocation brackets, as commented by others these are designed to adjust the shock travel in line with increased height. Some would say top out is in the design but frankly i figure any mechanical top out limitation has to place additional stress on some components??
I installed Murchison lift springs only front and back, and ended up with exactly what wanted -
Levelled out front and back ending up in between 2-2.25inches. (55mm)
My wheel centre to top arch ended up at 530mm front and 555mm rear.
Have full skid plates also
Just add your 40mm to above certification figures and you’ll know where you should be.
Again they do say they allow for give or take either side but thats your yardstick.
Either way they have some fixing to do and hold them to it.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Cheers


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you should only need the heavier springs in the front if you are running a steel bullbar. Bash plates and pre runner heavier springs not needed.

Well I'm about to bite the bullet and get a set for my wagon being a Diesel with an ECB bar 35kgs and Custom Off road bash plates 30kg that should be enough to keep my height to 530mm on the front using the 025C springs with struts, the rear just fit the 026B springs with spacers for the Nivomat's.....

Going by the RVD Data for the original Tare on Diesel 2267kg with the Petrol V6 at 2084kg then there is a 183kg difference between the 2 so putting the 025C springs on the front of yours @Bulldog2516 was certainly a bad choice by the fitters I reckon and would account for your height heading for the moon and no amount of settling in would sort it......

With yours, Russc0123's and Nanook's figures I reckon I'm on the right track to solving my sag issues, now just have to stump up the cash and clean my shed floor.

Are shock spacers still legal in Australia? Here in NZ ironman dont sell them anymore as the powers than be have deemed them illegal :(

I know in most places spacers for springs are frowned upon for while they provide lift they also change the dynamics, the shock spaces in this case wouldn't as they are only shockies and are just dampers, springs carry the load... You can drive without shocks but not without springs.
If thats the case in NZ it wouldn't be a surprise as no one has ever said Transport Authorities base all decisions on factual evidence.

The main problem stems from folk having crap OE suspension and wanting lift, so they fit a 50mm block to lift everything, the rubbish suspension can't handle things originally so with an extra 50mm it's even worse..............
I don't like them as the are a cop out, like fitting air bags to try and fix sad suspension.


They have them online at the NZ site ................http://www.ironman4x4.co.nz/products...sorber-spacers

Yes they have it as quotable on the site but unable to be ordered or sold in NZ is what 2 seperate ironman dealers have told me. I was advised to order through a australian dealer if i really wanted them but beware it would fail a check if seen and ofc no insurance. Been a few other makes affected as well for similar things . Interestingly i can add extra thick TJ type spring spacers and my local testing station is fine with it which just shows how silly they are.

Thats sounds stupid really because if you fitted the after market spring and kept the Nivomat shocks without spacer the shock would be fighting the spring and fail, if both failed together okay but one only could have you in a table drain real quick.....

I have often found workshops to sprout convincing statements but never manage to show the proof, like you can't change the Nivomats out or you will loose the tow rating, which is probably correct if you leave the original spring but a spring/shock change wouldn't, if that was the case then you couldn't change tyres/wheels/springs without certification ............... There is the rules and regulations and there's is the real world scene, they don't often match up......
Anyway I would just fit some Bilsteins if I was worried about it all.