2.7 CRD Ticking, smoking - any ideas?

[silycr]

I think I'll chip in my 2 cents here from my recent headache....

Recently I had a noisy injector, so I ordered 5 reco'd injectors from Germany and had them installed by a diesel mechanic. Cut 2 seats, used new copper washers and new mercedes bolts(as you must)

After I got the car back it was slightly smoking black and mechanic tried telling me they may need recoding(promptly told him they do not) and then claimed the ECU may need to adjust. Smoking got progressively worse(clouds). So bad I took the car for a quick drive after testing about 1km(country road), poor lady taking a walk getting some fresh air had to cover her mouth and nose while I idled past at 70kph.

Took the car back to mechanic, couldn't scan it on his tool. No codes on the scanner on my computer and couldn't find any faults. Tried replacing all injector washers again, no change. Only possibility left we thought were injectors. Ordered a second set and had full bosch bench testing in Aus

While waiting for them to arrive;
Deactivated the EGR with shunt and removed actuator, plugged the vaccum outlet(no change but does take longer to warm up)
Checked extensively for boost leaks(fitting from turbo outlet seems poorly designed but no leaks)
Turbo actuator functioning correctly and reacting when vacuum removed Vacuum pump acting correctly(no blockages, good pedal feel, etc)
I also had the noisy turbo actuator solenoid when you switch the car off. Taking the top hose off it releases the pressure, but the EGR solenoid is the same, so I swapped these over and noise is gone.
Unplugged MAF - restricted boost, drove, smoked and little power
MAP sensor tested fine and also swapped with another, as well as MAF(no change)
Cam sensor fine
Fuel pressure sensor fine
Second injectors arrived, mechanic installed them while I supervised(nightmare client, haha) and I told him to pay particular attention to additional copper washers as known symptom of black smoke after other people have had injector seals done. Watched him pull out all the washers and he found an extra washer in #1 and injector 3 & 4 were leaking. I was pissed and excited that we'd found the problem. Installed newest injectors and found it still smoking(less).
Gave up and took it to another diesel mechanic(the one everyone goes to when they can't fix it). Popped a seal on the way there while i was checking tyre pressures, so i was replacing #2 seal at 4:30am under service station lights(read-"fun times").
Second mechanic found another extra washer in #4(one the first mechanic claimed he cut the seat of), another leaking injector and checked all seat depths, retested all injectors(in case of bad luck with a second batch).
Reinstalled and the smoking is gone. Second mechanic advised both issues would be causing it to smoke. The extra washer moves the injector spray out of it's ideal location, so I doesn't burn completely. (black smoke at idle)
Leaking injector seal causes decreased compression. If/when it builds enough compression, it's too late and it spits the unburnt fuel out. (white or black smoke under load)

From my torquePro app at coolant 85degrees-
Boost was the same as it is now. 16.8-17.5psi
Boosted quickly(turbo whine was clearer, now it is barely audible)
At idle +1-2psi same as it is now.

Some more potentially useless information ;
If injectors leaking or a high pressure pump problem, the car will take longer to start. Mine is currently 2-3 revs till start.
A highly regarded intake cleaner is the Subaru upper cylinder cleaner. Miles ahead of the store bought stuff from friends using it.
Do some research on your chosen oil flush. There are some good ones, particularly from US, hens teeth in Aus. Some genuinely clean, others just thin your oil or don't capture loosened particles. Diesel oils generally already have a high amount of detergents. Good for cleaning petrol engines with.
Injectors #1-3 can be replaced easily, #4 will need at least 1 engine mount dropped for access, injector #5 is either engine out or a hole in the scuttle panel.
LiquidMoly will initially make the injectors noisy while running it for a minute, then much quieter, and 10km driving later back to normal.
Wynns professional diesel injector cleaner gave the best results I felt. Noticeably smoother idle, quieter injectors, stayed quiet for 2 tanks. Not on the shelf Wynns injector cleaner diesel though. That stuff did nothing and went in 2 tanks before the professional.
2 stroke oil is a myth. Used after all cleaners and did nothing. Further investigation shows it works on mechanical injectors, not crd.

I hope some of this information can point you in the right direction. I was seriously pulling my hair out at the issue, travelling from Melb to Brisbane to sort it out, not getting it sorted and having to travel back empty handed 3 times. Still have my caravan up there to be bought down, which this car has never towed

[Domaso]

Wow, Silycr, thanks for your post. You gave some new insights for chasing this problem. And this looks like a horrible oversight (diagnostic-wise) that not even injector test bench or any scan tool, etc could identify...
My injectors were also replaced by diesel specialists and new MB copper washers and bolts were fitted. They are diesel/injector specialists, but who knows if they could've missed that second copper washer...

1. I actually have CDI injector removal head (attaches to slide hammer), so could actually remove injectors myself and inspect those washers. For accessing injectors #4 and #5, I have made an easy access hole under the wiper cowl.
However I'm a bit lazy to do this job again if unnecessary... I was wondering - I should be able to measure the level of protruding injector and tell which injectors stand higher than others, right? It would be parts of millimeter but still a height difference (due to extra washer underneath).

2. Silycr, one more question - apart from the smoke, did you notice any power/acceleration decrease caused by those extra washers?

3. As I understand your problems are completely solved after sorting out those extra washers?

4. All the Temp, Boost PSI data is the same in my Jeep too, I don't think there's anything wrong.

5. I've heard good things about Subaru intake cleaner, but I've also heard that LiquiMoly is the same formulation and works really well too - amazingly even has success feedbacks on Amazon and auto forums...

6. LM injector cleaner was noticeable in the injector noise - made them a little quieter. But doesn't really matter to me much, as later I've replaced all the injector needles/nozzles/seats with new ones anyway.

7. I've done engine oil flush using Liqui-Moly flush, but I don't think the flush actually plays a huge role here...

8. I feel like 2-stroke in fuel makes my injectors a tiny bit quieter but that may only be Placebo to my ears At least I know I pass some extra lubrication through pump/injectors.

[bodgie]

Originally Posted by silycr

After I got the car back it was slightly smoking black and mechanic tried telling me they may need recoding(promptly told him they do not) and then claimed the ECU may need to adjust. Smoking got progressively worse(clouds). So bad I took the car for a quick drive after testing about 1km(country road), poor lady taking a walk getting some fresh air had to cover her mouth and nose while I idled past at 70kph.

If the classification (there is a number on the top of the injector in a circle) of the injector has changed you will need to tell the ECU what this number is. This lets the ECU know that how the injector deceivers fuel which will impact the way the engine runs if this is wrong.

The ECU will NOT learn this on its own, you need to set these values in the ECU. When I replaced mine I had one new injector that had a different classification that needed to be changed. When installed the engine seemingly ran well, after reclassification it ran noticably better.

These values must be changed if you want the engine to run properly.

I'd get the ECU reprogrammed to match your current injector classifications.

Originally Posted by silycr

While waiting for them to arrive;
Deactivated the EGR with shunt and removed actuator, plugged the vaccum outlet(no change but does take longer to warm up)
Checked extensively for boost leaks(fitting from turbo outlet seems poorly designed but no leaks)

This should have reduced the amount of smoke significantly, did it make a difference?

Originally Posted by silycr

Turbo actuator functioning correctly and reacting when vacuum removed Vacuum pump acting correctly(no blockages, good pedal feel, etc)
I also had the noisy turbo actuator solenoid when you switch the car off.

Taking the top hose off it releases the pressure, but the EGR solenoid is the same, so I swapped these over and noise is gone.
Unplugged MAF - restricted boost, drove, smoked and little power
MAP sensor tested fine and also swapped with another, as well as MAF(no change)

The noisy actuator is normal, I wouldn't have worried about this to be honest.

Originally Posted by silycr

Some more potentially useless information ;
If injectors leaking or a high pressure pump problem, the car will take longer to start. Mine is currently 2-3 revs till start.
A highly regarded intake cleaner is the Subaru upper cylinder cleaner. Miles ahead of the store bought stuff from friends using it.
Do some research on your chosen oil flush. There are some good ones, particularly from US, hens teeth in Aus. Some genuinely clean, others just thin your oil or don't capture loosened particles. Diesel oils generally already have a high amount of detergents. Good for cleaning petrol engines with.
Injectors #1-3 can be replaced easily, #4 will need at least 1 engine mount dropped for access, injector #5 is either engine out or a hole in the scuttle panel.

Oils ain't oils and if people use a cheaper diesel oil and don't service regularly. Most cleaners are a solvent and hope that when you drain the oil the crud drains with it. In my opinion for most engines this is way better than leaving the crap in place.

[silycr]

Originally Posted by Domaso

Wow, Silycr, thanks for your post. You gave some new insights for chasing this problem. And this looks like a horrible oversight (diagnostic-wise) that not even injector test bench or any scan tool, etc could identify...
My injectors were also replaced by diesel specialists and new MB copper washers and bolts were fitted. They are diesel/injector specialists, but who knows if they could've missed that second copper washer...

1. I actually have CDI injector removal head (attaches to slide hammer), so could actually remove injectors myself and inspect those washers. For accessing injectors #4 and #5, I have made an easy access hole under the wiper cowl.
However I'm a bit lazy to do this job again if unnecessary... I was wondering - I should be able to measure the level of protruding injector and tell which injectors stand higher than others, right? It would be parts of millimeter but still a height difference (due to extra washer underneath).

2. Silycr, one more question - apart from the smoke, did you notice any power/acceleration decrease caused by those extra washers?

3. As I understand your problems are completely solved after sorting out those extra washers?

4. All the Temp, Boost PSI data is the same in my Jeep too, I don't think there's anything wrong.

5. I've heard good things about Subaru intake cleaner, but I've also heard that LiquiMoly is the same formulation and works really well too - amazingly even has success feedbacks on Amazon and auto forums...

6. LM injector cleaner was noticeable in the injector noise - made them a little quieter. But doesn't really matter to me much, as later I've replaced all the injector needles/nozzles/seats with new ones anyway.

7. I've done engine oil flush using Liqui-Moly flush, but I don't think the flush actually plays a huge role here...

8. I feel like 2-stroke in fuel makes my injectors a tiny bit quieter but that may only be Placebo to my ears At least I know I pass some extra lubrication through pump/injectors.

The second diesel mechanic had a bosch scan tool which allowed him to see the ECU adjustment values of the injectors while it was running. They were all over the place as it was trying it's hardest to compensate. Had a whole 85hp on the dyno too....
If the slide hammer tool is the type that screws into the injector shaft, it may do more harm than good pulling them out. If you don't have any leaking washers they should come straight out with a little manipulation.
Measuring the injector height is a little difficult because of the chamfered edge on the injector hole, but is possible.
Yes, there was a huge decrease in power. After having both the leaking seals and extra washers removed the issue is resolved. The extra washer will be the most noticeable as you will get black smoke at idle wafting past your window and plenty when trying to go anywhere. Leaking injector should only smoke under load and give poor fuel consumption. I'm down to 9.5L/100km mixed driving. 11.7L/100km mixed with noisy injector, 13.8l/100km highway with extra washer and leaks.

[silycr]

Originally Posted by bodgie

If the classification (there is a number on the top of the injector in a circle) of the injector has changed you will need to tell the ECU what this number is. This lets the ECU know that how the injector deceivers fuel which will impact the way the engine runs if this is wrong.

The ECU will NOT learn this on its own, you need to set these values in the ECU. When I replaced mine I had one new injector that had a different classification that needed to be changed. When installed the engine seemingly ran well, after reclassification it ran noticably better.

These values must be changed if you want the engine to run properly.

I'd get the ECU reprogrammed to match your current injector classifications.




This should have reduced the amount of smoke significantly, did it make a difference?




The noisy actuator is normal, I wouldn't have worried about this to be honest.



Oils ain't oils and if people use a cheaper diesel oil and don't service regularly. Most cleaners are a solvent and hope that when you drain the oil the crud drains with it. In my opinion for most engines this is way better than leaving the crap in place.

The injectors I have are the same classification number as the old injectors. The 3.0L CRD ecu could have the new adjustment number, along with having to input the hash code to verify it. Mismatched adjustment numbers only resulted in a louder/rougher idle and louder running.
2.7L only had the option to be reset so it could relearn faster and couldn't take adjustment numbers. I'm open to evidence on the contrary that I've somehow missed.
The EGR valve doesn't significantly reduce smoke unless there is a problem with it. Only tiny improvements can be seen. Main benefit is preventing the buildup in the intake runners. Given the horrendous amount of smoke it was already producing, I didn't notice the small difference,
I already had the EGR valve actuator off. Takes 30secs to remove and replace the Turbo solenoid, so why not right?

[Domaso]

I didn't even know about this classification thing...
Again, even more questions are tickling my brain... This is very helpful thread though


1. Just took a look at my injectors: 1 and 2 are Class-1, 3 is Class-2, 4 is Class-1 again, and obviously I couldn't see the 5th one..

2. On a stock car, should all 5 injectors be the same class?

3. As I understand, even if there is one injector with odd class - it can be re-classified individually in the ECM? Or is it better for me to find Class-1 injector and replace my injector #3?

4. What scan tool the mechanic has to have to be able to re-classify the injectors? DRBIII?

5. Is classification the only adjustment or are there any other fine-tunings required for the injectors?

6. Guys, can you take a look what class injectors are sitting in your CRDs? Are they all same class?


By the way, I've found on MB forums, this is supposedly taken from some MB service manual - it says that Class-4 are not classified and ECM has no settings for it.

[bodgie]

Originally Posted by silycr

The injectors I have are the same classification number as the old injectors. The 3.0L CRD ecu could have the new adjustment number, along with having to input the hash code to verify it. Mismatched adjustment numbers only resulted in a louder/rougher idle and louder running.
2.7L only had the option to be reset so it could relearn faster and couldn't take adjustment numbers. I'm open to evidence on the contrary that I've somehow missed.

It is in the service manual, there is a section about injector classification. I've had it done and it makes a noticeable difference.

I can't find my manual at the moment but it is there if you have a look.

Originally Posted by silycr

The EGR valve doesn't significantly reduce smoke unless there is a problem with it. Only tiny improvements can be seen. Main benefit is preventing the buildup in the intake runners. Given the horrendous amount of smoke it was already producing, I didn't notice the small difference,?

When I did the delete, it reduced smoke easily by 80% and others have reported the same so I'd be surprised if yours didn't make a difference. This was before inlet manifold cleaning FWIW.