DOORS OFF: Answers from QLD Transport - Page 3 - AUSJEEPOFFROAD.COM Jeep News Australia and New Zealand

Go Back   AUSJEEPOFFROAD.COM Jeep News Australia and New Zealand > GENERAL > General Jeep Chat
Register Forums Trading Your Jeep My Garage Mark All Read

Post New Thread  Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #15  
Old 25-01-2011
Bogged  Bogged is offline
MudSplasher
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: outside
Posts: 1,872
What Jeep do I drive?: CJ
Likes: 2
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Default

Myers Manx buggies- Based off a VW Beetle
  #16  
Old 25-01-2011
rico86's Avatar
rico86  rico86 is offline
Full Flexer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Coffs Harbour
Age: 38
Posts: 521
What Jeep do I drive?: XJ
Likes: 10
Liked 69 Times in 29 Posts
Default

when i was back in sydney i spoke to the head of the highway patrol one night when i had a few cans under my belt and he stated the jeeps are fine with no doors on the road i have 1000 of ams with no doors on. now living on the gold coast i drove around one day with no doors and an office with a jk swell stopped me to take a picture and said they don't allow driving without doors but they cannot do anything eg. fines or defect because i still have NSW registration but i don't want to draw attention so i just leave them on now but i wouldn't mind just cruise doorless especially when girls have short skirts in the back
  #17  
Old 25-01-2011
BennyC76's Avatar
BennyC76  BennyC76 is offline
Full Flexer
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Brisbane, Greenslopes
Posts: 665
What Jeep do I drive?: JK
Likes: 2
Liked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Default

I think your argument is starting well and you could well point out the contradictions in the QLD road safety rules to the officials who make and change the road safety laws.

What you are doing is forwarding an argument and you need to be totally matter of fact about what you discuss. Go thought the relevant QLD legislation, find the parts that you consider contradictory, inset those parts “word for word” with references to the relevant acts. Then explain why you consider that part of the legislation to be incorrect and find evidence for your argument. Try to avoid emotive language and feelings as this doesn’t help you factual argument.

Example:

Part 1
“Qld road safety discussed the requirements for doors on vehicles.” Quote from relevant legislation.


Your argument as to why the vehicle you are discussing is not required having doors,
“jeep owners manual door, stock door requirements” Quote from owners manual (official jeep document)

Do this for each point you want to discuss and summarise the argument again after your points to highlight your argument. Keep it factual and non emotive.

Hope this helps

Good luck
  #18  
Old 25-01-2011
brenttj's Avatar
brenttj  brenttj is offline
Lowranger Shocker
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Geraldton W.A
Age: 33
Posts: 1,617
What Jeep do I drive?: TJ
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

yeah i got done to mate but they didn't fine me just gave me a yellow sticker and then no one could give me a definite answer about having them on or off
  #19  
Old 25-01-2011
Pura Vida's Avatar
Pura Vida  Pura Vida is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Sydney (from NC, USA)
Age: 42
Posts: 44
What Jeep do I drive?: TJ
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Updated argument

Here is my updated defence (a few points in red that I might remove):

I received a fine for not adhering to Australian Design Standards for not having doors, but I was not in violation of any Australian Design Rules. 2001 Jeep Wrangler TJs were designed to remove the doors just like the roof. I can take-off and put-on my doors in less than two seconds without the use of tools—that’s faster than the top.

The factory hard top is fibreglass and the doors are lightweight, filled with foam, and have no side intrusion beams. They were designed this way for quick and easy removal and storage just like the top. The vehicle complies with safety standards because of the sturdy structural design of its chassis without the doors as well as seats, which were designed to be high enough to avoid impact. Specifically the ADR for side impact protection only apply to vehicles where the torso is within 700mm of the ground.

In the owner’s manual (as well as on the vehicle) it says that “The top and doors on this vehicle are designed only for protection against the elements. Do not rely on the top and doors to contain occupants within the vehicle or to protect against injury during an accident. Wear seatbelts at all times.” “Although your vehicle may be equipped with a soft top or optional hard top to give the occupants protection from the weather, these tops do not offer structural protection in the event of an accident and do not change the open-body characteristic of the vehicle.”

It’s no legal argument, but street legal beach buggies and motorbikes do not have doors, nor seatbelts—as designed. I know Jeep Wranglers (although safer than motorbikes even without doors) are not motorbikes—but nor are they standard cars designed to need doors either.
The lightweight foam-filled doors, which were designed to be optionally removed, do not provide additional protection in a collision because they don’t contain side intrusion beams as are standard with other vehicles. However, the structure of the chassis without the doors was designed to sustain impact on its own without doors and complies with the "Dynamic Side Impact Occupant Protection" ADR 72 due to the height of the seat (700mm), not due to protection offered by the doors, as the doors offer nothing more than protection from the elements (weather).

I realise that unless the side mirrors are relocated via after market brackets they will not comply with other ADRs. I have, however, relocated the side mirrors to the chassi in order to comply with the requirement to have mirrors.

The owner’s manual also references in several other places that the vehicle was designed to be driven with the doors removed:
• Page 82: “NOTE: If the doors are to be removed, pull the #4 fuse from the fuse block to prevent dome lamp illumination.”
• Page 103: “Outside rear view mirrors are mounted on the doors. If you choose to remove the doors, see your authorized dealer for a replacement cowl-mounted outside mirror.... NOTE: If the doors are removed, the courtesy lights will remain on. To turn these lights off, remove fuse #4 in the fuse panel. Refer to ‘Fuse Panel’ in Section 7 of this manual.”
• Page 104: “(Warning) If you remove the doors, store them outside the vehicle. In the event of an accident, a loose door may cause personal injury.”

As described above, unlike other vehicles, which were designed to be driven with doors, the Jeep Wrangler TJ model was intentionally designed to be safely operated with the doors removed...as well as the top—just like motorbikes and other non-standard cars.


Australian Design Rules

ADR 14/02 – Rear Vision Mirrors
Published 14 August 2006
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2006L02663
Why not in violation: I have two side mirrors and a rear view mirror. They are attached to the chassis, not the doors.

ADR 2/00 Side door latches & hinges (thinking to leave this one out)
Published 12 May 2006
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2006L01362
Why not in violation: only applicable after 1 July 2008 with no preceding rules.

From ADR 2 on exclusions for vehicles manufactured prior to 2008:
Clause 3.2. There is no mandatory application date for all other model vehicles. They may comply with this vehicle standard or continue to comply with earlier versions of this vehicle standard as applicable for particular vehicle categories.

Applicability Table
Vehicle Category ADR Category Code UNECE Category Code * Manufactured on or After Acceptable Prior Rules
Moped 2 wheels LA L1 N/A
Moped 3 wheels LB L2 N/A
Motor cycle LC L3 N/A
Motor cycle and sidecar LD L4 N/A
Motor tricycle LE L5
LEM N/A
Enclosed vehicles LEP & LEG (see clause 3.4) 1 July 2008 (see clause 3.2)
All vehicles LEP & LEG (see clause 3.4) 1 July 2008 (see clause 3.2)
Passenger car MA M1 1 July 2008 (see clause 3.2)
Forward-control passenger vehicle MB M1 1 July 2008 (see clause 3.2)
Off-road passenger vehicle MC M1 1 July 2008 (see clause 3.2)



ADR 29/00 Side door strength (might exclude this because all I need to prove is ADR 72)
Published: 3 October 2007
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2007C00735

The function of this Design Rule is to specify strength and stiffness requirements for side doors of passenger cars which can be used for occupant access to reduce intrusion into the passenger compartment as a result of side impact.

Why not in violation: the vehicle complies with ADR 72 exempting it from ADR 29/00 as described in section 29.5.

The stock doors are actually not designed to provide protection from impact. They have no side intrusion beams without which they wouldn’t be strong enough to comply as manufactured with the doors on. So how is Daimler Chrystler (Jeep) able to manufacture such vehicles—because the vehicle complies with ADR 72 exempting it from ADR 29/00.

Quote from ADR 29 exempting vehicles compliant with ADR 72:
29.5. EXEMPTION FROM TEST REQUIREMENTS
Vehicles complying with the requirements of ADR 72/… are exempt from the requirements of this rule.


ADR 72/00 Dynamic side impact occupant protection
Published: 12 December 2005
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2005L03992

Why not in violation: the TJ model was produced from 1997-2006 (mine is a 2001) and ADR72/00 is only applicable non new model vehicles as of 2004 with no applicable prior rules. (The chart is blank, but I’m not actually sure if there isn’t an older version of the rule). And even if the age of the model didn’t exempt it from ADR 72, the height from the ground of a person sitting in the seats (more than 700mm).

Quote from ADR 72 the exclusion all vehicles that aren’t new models prior to 2004:
3. APPLICABILITY AND IMPLeMENTATION
3.1.1. This ADR applies to the design and construction of vehicles as required by clauses 3.1.2 and 3.1.3 and set out in clause 3.2.
3.1.2. This rule is binding:
a) from 1 January 1999 on all new model MA vehicles; and
b) from 1 January 2004 on all MA vehicles.
c) from 1 January 2000 on all new model MB and MC vehicles; and
d) from 1 January 2004 on all MB, MC vehicles.
e) from 1 July 2000 on all new model NA vehicles; and
f) from 1 July 2005 on all NA vehicles.
3.1.3. For the purposes of clause 3.1.2, a “new model” is a vehicle model first produced with a ‘date of Manufacture’ on or after 1 January 1999.
3.2. Applicability Table
Vehicle Category ADR Category Code UNECE Category Code Manufactured on or After Acceptable Prior Rules
Moped 2 wheels LA L1 N/A
Moped 3 wheels LB L2 N/A
Motor cycle LC L3 N/A
Motor cycle and sidecar LD L4 N/A
Motor tricycle LE L5 N/A
Passenger car MA M1 1 Jan 1999*
Forward-control passenger vehicle MB M1 1 Jan 2000*
Off-road passenger vehicle MC M1 1 Jan 2000*
Light omnibus MD M2 N/A
Heavy omnibus ME M3 N/A
Light goods vehicle NA N1 1 July 1999*
Medium goods vehicle NB N2 N/A
Heavy goods vehicle NC N3 N/A
Very light trailer TA O1 N/A
Light trailer TB O2 N/A
Medium trailer TC O3 N/A
Heavy trailer TD O4 N/A
* see clauses 3.1.2 and 3.1.3

The TJ model comes with light weight foam filled doors with no side intrusion beams so the doors themselves do not make the Jeep Wrangler TJ complaint with ADR 72—so how do they pass ADR 72? The Jeep TJ is compliant because of the sturdy structural design of the chassis without the doors and the height of the seating reference point being more than 700mm from the ground.

Quote from ADR 72 on exclusions for vehicles where the seating reference point is 700mm from the ground:
1. SCOPE
The function of this vehicle standard is to specify crash worthiness requirements in terms of forces and accelerations measured by anthropomorphic dummies so as to minimise the likelihood of injury to the occupants in side impact.
This Regulation applies to the lateral collision behaviour of the structure of the passenger compartment of Ml and Nl categories of vehicles where the R point of the lowest seat is not more than 700 mm from ground level when the vehicle is in the condition corresponding to the reference mass defined in paragraph 2.10. of this Regulation.
2. DEFINITIONS
For the purposes of this Regulation:
2.4. “R point” or “seating reference point” means the reference point specified by the vehicle manufacturer which:
2.4.1. has co-ordinates determined in relation to the vehicle structure;
2.4.2. corresponds to the theoretical position of the point of torso/thighs rotation (H point) for the lowest and most rearward normal driving position or position of use given by the vehicle manufacturer for each seating position specified by him;
__________________
Pura Vida is white 2001 TJ with 31" tires and 2" lift
  #20  
Old 25-01-2011
Pura Vida's Avatar
Pura Vida  Pura Vida is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Sydney (from NC, USA)
Age: 42
Posts: 44
What Jeep do I drive?: TJ
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default ADR 72 Defence - model age

Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the ADR design standards pre 2005 (i.e. 1989?).

The 2005 version of ADR 72 applies only to TJ's 2004 and newer (because the model was first manufactured before 2000). And, the table indicating prior applicable rules is blank (so maybe there are none, but I doubt it).

You can see the table here:
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2005L03992
__________________
Pura Vida is white 2001 TJ with 31" tires and 2" lift
  #21  
Old 25-01-2011
Pura Vida's Avatar
Pura Vida  Pura Vida is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Sydney (from NC, USA)
Age: 42
Posts: 44
What Jeep do I drive?: TJ
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default ADR 72 Defence - point R above 700mm

Does anyone know where exactly is meant by seating reference point "R" in ADR 72?

A defence of ADR 72 is the “seating reference point R” being higher than 700mm from the ground. I’m pretty sure it’s more than 700mm, but I’m not exactly sure where it is.

Have a look at the link below. I can't quite tell what they mean with the intersecting planes and angles in reference from the torso and point H.

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2005L03992
__________________
Pura Vida is white 2001 TJ with 31" tires and 2" lift
Post New Thread  Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On





All times are GMT +10. The time now is 07:23 PM.


Advertisements




AJOR does not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of AJOR or any entity associated with AJOR, nor should any advice be substituted as technical advice replacing that of a mechanic. You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use AJOR to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, religious, political or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by AJOR. The owner, administrators and moderators of AJOR reserve the right to delete any message or members for any or no reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold harmless AJOR, the administrators, moderators, and their agents with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s). The use of profile signatures to intentionally mislead or misdirect any member on this forum is not acceptable and may result in your account being suspended. Any trip that is organised through the AJOR forum is participated at your own risk. If you or your vehicle is damaged it is your responsibility, not that of the person that posted the thread, message or topic initiating the trip, nor the organisers of AJOR or moderators of any specific forum. This forum and associated website is the property of AJOR. No user data is harvested and no information supplied in your registration will be sold for profit.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

AJOR © 2002 - 2024 AUSJEEPOFFROAD.COM. All corporate trademarked names and logos are property of their respective owners. Ausjeepoffroad is in no way associated with DaimlerChrysler Corporation or Fiat Jeep.
www.ausjeep.com www.ausjeep.com.au www.midlifemate.com ausjeepforum.com www.r9kustoms.com
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=